Legislature(1995 - 1996)

02/22/1995 05:07 PM House FSH

Audio Topic
* first hearing in first committee of referral
+ teleconferenced
= bill was previously heard/scheduled
txt
              HOUSE SPECIAL COMMITTEE ON FISHERIES                             
                       February 22, 1995                                       
                           5:07 p.m.                                           
                                                                               
                                                                               
 MEMBERS PRESENT                                                               
                                                                               
 Representative Alan Austerman, Chairman                                       
 Representative Gary Davis                                                     
 Representative Scott Ogan                                                     
 Representative Kim Elton                                                      
                                                                               
 MEMBERS ABSENT                                                                
                                                                               
 Representative Carl Moses, Vice-Chair                                         
                                                                               
 COMMITTEE CALENDAR                                                            
                                                                               
 Presentation by the Division of Sport Fish, Alaska Department of              
 Fish and Game                                                                 
                                                                               
 WITNESS REGISTER                                                              
                                                                               
 JOHN BURKE, Acting Director                                                   
 Division of Sport Fish                                                        
 Alaska Department of Fish and Game                                            
 P.O. Box 25526                                                                
 Juneau, AK  99802-5526                                                        
 Phone:  465-6187                                                              
 POSITION STATEMENT:  Initiated presentation                                   
                                                                               
 TOM DONEK, Access Coordinator                                                 
 Division of Sport Fish                                                        
 Alaska Department of Fish and Game                                            
 P.O. Box 25526                                                                
 Juneau, AK  99802-5526                                                        
 Phone:  465-4180                                                              
 POSITION STATEMENT:  Provided part of presentation                            
                                                                               
 ROCKY HOLMES, Regional Supervisor Southeast Region                            
 Division of Sport Fish                                                        
 Alaska Department of Fish and Game                                            
 P.O. Box 240020                                                               
 Juneau, AK  99824                                                             
 Phone:  465-4296                                                              
 POSITION STATEMENT:  Provided part of presentation                            
                                                                               
 FRED ANDERSEN, Regional Supervisor                                            
 Arctic-Yukon-Kuskokwim Region                                                 
 Division of Sport Fish                                                        
 Alaska Department of Fish and Game                                            
 1300 College Road                                                             
 Fairbanks, AK  99701                                                          
 Phone:  459-7207                                                              
 POSITION STATEMENT:  Provided part of presentation                            
                                                                               
 KEVIN DELANEY, Southcentral Regional Supervisor                               
 Division of Sport Fish                                                        
 Alaska Department of Fish and Game                                            
 333 Raspberry Road                                                            
 Anchorage, AK  99502                                                          
 Phone:  267-2224                                                              
 POSITION STATEMENT:  Provided part of presentation                            
                                                                               
 ACTION NARRATIVE                                                              
                                                                               
 TAPE 95-10, SIDE A                                                            
 Number 000                                                                    
                                                                               
 CHAIRMAN ALAN AUSTERMAN called the meeting to order at 5:07 p.m.              
 He noted for the record Representatives Davis, Elton and Ogan were            
 present and that a quorum was present.                                        
                                                                               
 Number 010                                                                    
                                                                               
 JOHN BURKE, Acting Director, Division of Sport Fish, Alaska                   
 Department of Fish and Game (ADFG), introduced his staff and said,            
 "We have three goals in the Division and we try to measure all of             
 our activities against these goals.  The first one is to conserve             
 populations of naturally spawning, naturally reproducing fish.                
 Second, we would like to maximize both the reasonable opportunity             
 to sport fish and the diversity of that sport fishing.  The third             
 goal, we've given ourselves over time, is to optimize the social              
 and economic benefits of Alaska's recreational fisheries."  He                
 added, "Our main task can be simplified as making certain                     
 populations of sport fish are healthy, while at the same time                 
 providing as much opportunity to fish for these fish as we can                
 provide."                                                                     
                                                                               
 MR. BURKE then compared the Division of Sport Fish's in-season                
 management of sport fish to that of commercial fishing, saying, "We           
 have to go in afterwards and find out if we have the appropriate              
 escapements and we have to actually analyze the amount of harvest             
 there was, as well as escapement, without doing in-season                     
 management.  Now there are numerous instances in today's crowded              
 and controversial fisheries, where we do in-season management.                
 These used to be the exception, they're growing more common all the           
 time.  In order to analyze our fisheries after the season takes               
 place, to get the data required for us to know what happened in               
 that previous year, we have what's called the Statewide Harvest               
 Survey.  This booklet I provided you is the most recent record from           
 this survey.  As you'll note, it's from 1993, the data generally              
 lags the fishery by about 18 months."                                         
                                                                               
 Number 110                                                                    
                                                                               
 MR. BURKE said, "Why do we have the harvest survey?  Frankly, it's            
 the best, inexpensive way we have to gather this data.  Each year,            
 questionnaires are mailed out to a representative sample of about             
 ten percent of Alaskan sport license holders.  When a person                  
 receives that questionnaire, they're asked to fill it out for that            
 entire household," and added, "Nonrespondents are then issued a               
 second questionnaire, as well as a reminder letter, and if that is            
 not returned, we will issue then a third reminder and an additional           
 survey.  Now sometimes this creates confusion because of the                  
 overlap in mailing times.  Sometimes people receive additional                
 surveys even though they have responded to the first one.  Over 55            
 percent of the surveys are completed and returned."  He then said             
 that carelessly filled out and obviously inaccurate surveys are               
 discarded and discussed the statistical validity of the harvest               
 survey.                                                                       
                                                                               
 MR. BURKE concluded, "The information from the survey is used by              
 us, after the year, to identify things that have happened that we             
 might not have expected in some instances.  It's used to go back              
 and let us help us analyze effort throughout the state.  Where did            
 the people fish?  Where was most of the effort put (indiscernible)?           
 And it also enables us to analyze the catch,  just how many fish              
 were caught and how many fish were killed?"                                   
                                                                               
 CHAIRMAN AUSTERMAN asked if ADFG utilizes data from federal                   
 agencies who have reporting requirements and data.                            
                                                                               
 MR. BURKE replied that ADFG information is independent of other               
 sources and added, "Now if we had an area manager who was going to            
 analyze that fishery, he would take everything he had available to            
 use."                                                                         
                                                                               
 CHAIRMAN AUSTERMAN pointed out that Kodiak charter boat operators             
 have found a 20 percent difference between ADFG numbers and those             
 of federal agencies in National Wildlife Refuge on Kodiak                     
 Island.                                                                       
                                                                               
 MR. BURKE said, "If there were to be a controversy and this was a             
 high pressure fishery and we thought we had a conservation problem,           
 then all sources would be viewed as indicators and ADFG would                 
 probably go in ourselves with a creel survey".                                
                                                                               
 REPRESENTATIVE KIM ELTON asked if the harvest data delineates the             
 harvest by sport resident and sport nonresident?                              
                                                                               
 MR. BURKE said, "Yes."                                                        
                                                                               
 Number 280                                                                    
                                                                               
 TOM DONEK, Access Coordinator, Division of Sport Fish, ADFG, said,            
 "The Access Program is aimed at improving access for recreational             
 boaters and sport anglers throughout the state.  Our Access Program           
 is founded on the principle that the finest fishing in the state              
 would be of little value unless the anglers can get to it.  Our               
 emphasis is on access for anglers using boats.  But we do                     
 accomplish other projects for non-boating anglers."  He added, "We            
 look for opportunities every time we can to work with the local               
 community.  The basis of our program is the Federal Aid and Sport             
 Fish Restoration Act which mandates that we use 12 and a half                 
 percent of our federal funds for recreational boating access.  Each           
 year we try to set aside a smaller percentage of our funds for                
 other types of access projects.  Since 1985, when our program                 
 started, we have used about 15 percent of the federal funds                   
 available to us for access project.  That translates into about $14           
 million in federal aid funds that we have brought into Alaska for             
 access."                                                                      
                                                                               
 Number 330                                                                    
                                                                               
 CHAIRMAN AUSTERMAN asked what was the state's match to those                  
 federal funds?                                                                
                                                                               
 MR. DONEK said, "It's the same as any of our projects.  It's a                
 25/75 match.  Three federal dollars and one state dollar."                    
                                                                               
 The slide show viewing boat ramp sites was given.                             
                                                                               
 CHAIRMAN AUSTERMAN asked how access projects are given priority.              
                                                                               
 MR. DONEK described a ranking system and said, "And we depend, to             
 a large extent, on the information that comes back from our area              
 managers."   He added, "We try to divide them up so everyone in the           
 state gets something.  We don't direct all our effort to one area.            
 Right now, we're spending about 60 percent of our money in the                
 Southcentral Region, about 25 to 30 percent in Southeast and about            
 10 or 12 percent up in Fairbanks, north of the Alaska Range.  That            
 roughly follows the angling effort in those areas."                           
                                                                               
 REPRESENTATIVE AUSTERMAN asked if it was a long project list.                 
                                                                               
 MR. DONEK said, "The last time I counted the list there was like              
 120 some projects on it."                                                     
                                                                               
 CHAIRMAN AUSTERMAN asked if Mr. Donek participated in any habitat             
 restoration.                                                                  
                                                                               
 MR. DONEK indicated that those situations are land management                 
 situations and ADFG manages the resource, not the land.                       
                                                                               
 Number 455                                                                    
                                                                               
 ROCKY HOLMES, Regional Supervisor Southeast Region, Division of               
 Sport Fish, ADFG, testified while showing slides.  He said, "In               
 Southeast, 80 percent of the sport fishing effort is in saltwater.            
 That's different than the rest of the state where 75 percent of the           
 sport fish effort is in freshwater, as opposed to saltwater."  He             
 then spoke about the increasing number of recreational harvests of            
 fish and said, "The reason we see a significant increase in the               
 number of nonresidents in Southeast Alaska is that we've seen a lot           
 more tourists coming to this state, to the area recently.  That's             
 created a large demand for short term charter fishing                         
 opportunities."  Most of the rest of his testimony is indiscernible           
 due to the slide projector fan blowing in the microphone.                     
                                                                               
 MR. HOLMES said, "The most popular fishery is the saltwater king              
 salmon fishery and it accounts for approximately 36 percent of the            
 angling effort in the region.  It's also the biggest management               
 headache in Southeast Alaska, operating the fishery under the quota           
 established through the U.S.-Canada (indiscernible).  In 1992, the            
 Alaska Board of Fisheries allocated 17 percent of the salmon quota            
 to the sport fishery (indiscernible).  He then talked about the               
 $500,000 annual expense of the creel survey saying, "That works out           
 to about $12.50 for every king salmon harvested in the sport                  
 fishery.  But to put that in perspective, that represents about two           
 percent of the economic value of that king salmon fishery, which in           
 1988 was $23 million dollars."                                                
                                                                               
 MR.HOLMES then said, "For the upcoming season there's a very good             
 change that the Endangered Species Act (ESA) may effect both the              
 sport and commercial fishery.  Fortunately, in both of those                  
 fisheries, we catch a small number of Snake River fall spawning               
 chinook salmon,"  and added, "Unfortunately, we may not know what             
 the National Marine Fisheries Service (NMFS) restrictions are going           
 to be until after the sport fish season starts."  He then talked              
 about the decline in steelhead escapement, particularly in the                
 Situk River.                                                                  
                                                                               
 Number 584                                                                    
                                                                               
 CHAIRMAN AUSTERMAN asked for the reasons behind the decline in                
 steelhead runs, particularly seen in 1991.                                    
                                                                               
 MR. HOLMES said, "We know it wasn't sport caught fish because the             
 steelhead harvest in the sport fishery and really in the commercial           
 fishery too, in Alaska, is pretty minimal.  Most sport fishermen              
 practice catch and release for steelhead and about 90 percent of              
 them are caught and released."                                                
                                                                               
 CHAIRMAN AUSTERMAN asked if the king salmon fishery in Southeast              
 uses the creel survey or the State Harvest Survey sampling.                   
                                                                               
 MR. HOLMES indicated both.                                                    
                                                                               
 CHAIRMAN AUSTERMAN asked, "How do you regulate the sport fishery              
 cap?"                                                                         
                                                                               
 MR. HOLMES said, "When we get close to our cap we, usually drop the           
 bag limit.  We've done other things: One year we banned down                  
 riggers because we got way to close to our cap with too much of the           
 fishery left and we had to do something significant."                         
                                                                               
 Number 618                                                                    
                                                                               
 REPRESENTATIVE GARY DAVIS asked how sport fishers would be notified           
 if and when NMFS cuts the king salmon quota substantially.                    
                                                                               
 MR. HOLMES said, "We do have plans but we want to wait until we               
 have a little bit better idea of what the potential magnitude of              
 what they're going to cause to happen."                                       
                                                                               
 Number 638                                                                    
                                                                               
 CHAIRMAN AUSTERMAN asked if ADFG knows enough to monitor the                  
 migration of the ESA salmon.                                                  
                                                                               
 MR. HOLMES said, "We've looked at that but we're not the ones that            
 get to make the decision on how the cuts to the fishery will occur.           
 That's a suggestion that we would make to NMFS, to say that we                
 could probably have a much higher quota as long as we didn't fish             
 in these areas, or at certain times, but that's not necessarily               
 something that they're going to listen to and what we've heard is             
 that they're much more likely to tell all fisheries of Southeast              
 Alaska just to reduce their catch a certain amount."                          
                                                                               
 CHAIRMAN AUSTERMAN said, "Can you tell when those fish are in the             
 area?  Or when they'll be in the area?"                                       
                                                                               
 MR. HOLMES said, "Yes we can, based on coded wire tag sampling."              
                                                                               
 CHAIRMAN AUSTERMAN said, "Is there a potential harvest plan you               
 could put together based upon the cycle?"                                     
                                                                               
 MR. HOLMES said yes and, "Our people that are dealing with NMFS and           
 US-Canada (Treaty negotiations) are aware of those things but, like           
 I said, they're not necessarily listened to."                                 
                                                                               
 Number 661                                                                    
                                                                               
 REPRESENTATIVE KIM ELTON said he had heard that sport allocation              
 could be reduced to 17 to 20 thousand fish this year, compared to             
 the 40,000 fish last year.  He said, "Would you like to speculate             
 the kind of management problems you might have if we increase                 
 outside marketing to nonresident sport fishermen, what that means             
 to my next door neighbor who's a sport fisherman?  What the impact            
 on the Alaskan resident sport fisherman might be."                            
                                                                               
 MR. HOLMES said, "The worst case scenario is:  The king salmon                
 resource in Southeast Alaska is already fully allocated and every             
 non-resident that comes up here to fish has the potential of taking           
 some of those king salmon away from residents,"  and then added,              
 "The sport fishery has the capacity to harvest 70,000 fish, but               
 that of course is a Board of Fisheries decision."                             
                                                                               
 CHAIRMAN AUSTERMAN asked how fast ADFG can respond when they use              
 Creel Survey information and they are close to a cap.                         
                                                                               
 MR. HOLMES described the sport harvest evaluation process and                 
 indicated reevaluation happens every two weeks.                               
                                                                               
 Number 710                                                                    
                                                                               
 FRED ANDERSEN, Regional Supervisor, Arctic-Yukon-Kuskokwim Region,            
 Division of Sport Fish, ADFG, began his testimony using overheads             
 and describing his region.                                                    
                                                                               
 TAPE 95-10, SIDE B                                                            
 Number 000                                                                    
                                                                               
 MR. ANDERSEN said, "Our Stocking Program, exclusively in the Tanana           
 River drainage, we stock four species of fish.  As the program was            
 originally intended, it was a means of diversifying the numbers of            
 species that were available to recreational anglers in that part of           
 the state but in recent years we've come to view it more as a                 
 conservation tool in that we use stock fish as a means of drawing             
 fishing pressure away from native species which, for the most part,           
 can take relatively only light to moderate levels of harvest before           
 going into decline.  Northern Pike and Arctic Grayling for example.           
 Studies have shown we can support something in the order of 15 to             
 20 percent removal on an annual basis before they start to decline.           
 Unlike recreational fisheries here in Southeast and Southcentral              
 Alaska, nonresidents constitute only about 20 percent of the                  
 anglers in our area."  He then described some of the smaller                  
 conservation problems in Interior Alaska.  He said, "For the most             
 part we don't have a lot of conflicts between sport anglers and the           
 subsistence fisheries and the commercial fisheries."                          
                                                                               
 CHAIRMAN AUSTERMAN asked about the False Pass fishery.                        
                                                                               
 MR. ANDERSON said, "The False Pass fishery intercepts salmon bound            
 for western Alaska, for the Yukon, Kuskokwim and Norton Sound and             
 Kotzebue fish.  For the most part, chums are not sought by                    
 recreational anglers, therefore, (indiscernible) we're not directly           
 involved in that."                                                            
                                                                               
 Number 225                                                                    
                                                                               
 KEVIN DELANEY, Southcentral Regional Supervisor, Division of Sport            
 Fish, ADFG, testified describing his region and said, "The region             
 I manage supports approximately 73 percent, in 1993, of the total             
 statewide sport fishing effort in the state."  He then described              
 the growth in angler days in Southcentral from 750,000 to 800,000             
 angler days from 1977, to the recent estimate of 1.5 to 1.8 million           
 angler days, the present estimate.  Regarding Cook Inlet, he said,            
 "The Cook Inlet area of the Southcentral Region supports 78 percent           
 of the effort that takes place in Southcentral."  He then                     
 proportioned each subsection of this region out.                              
                                                                               
 MR. DELANEY said, "In Southcentral Alaska, we too have done some              
 analyses of the economic value of sport fishing.  We have a couple            
 of different studies.  The most comprehensive was completed in 1986           
 by consultants Jones and Stokes.  I've taken the liberty to adjust            
 those figures for the changes in the effort that we've seen since             
 that time and made a very conservative change in the costs for                
 direct expenditures, per day, based on inflation.  Really what                
 we're looking at now, the Cook Inlet fisheries generate                       
 approximately $200 million a year in direct expenditures from sport           
 fishermen. These aren't direct expenditures, this isn't amortizing            
 out the boat that you may buy or the motor home.  These                       
 expenditures come from basically the time you leave your home until           
 the time you rearrive back there and it includes both resident and            
 nonresident."                                                                 
                                                                               
 CHAIRMAN AUSTERMAN asked if airfares from faraway locations were              
 included in those calculations.                                               
                                                                               
 MR. DELANEY said yes and, "What we're seeing here is a somewhat of            
 a leveling off.  I think that's indicative of the crowding and                
 competition that exists in a lot of fairly accessible fisheries.              
 What I see occurring in Cook Inlet is continued growth, more likely           
 than not, at the rate that we watched occur during the late 1980s."           
                                                                               
 CHAIRMAN AUSTERMAN asked if the growth would be in the outlying               
 areas?                                                                        
                                                                               
 MR. DELANEY said, "A lot of it has to do with how we approach the             
 management in Cook Inlet.  It's very much like sticking your hand             
 in a bowl of jelly in that reason, if you push effort, you restrict           
 effort in one area, you can expect to lose some of it and expect              
 some of it to flow over," and gave an example.  He listed the many            
 fisheries he is involved in and said, "Some of them obviously have            
 been the center of a lot of attention here in recent years,                   
 particularly in recent months, the chinook salmon in the Susitna              
 River Drainage, streams like the Deshka River, Lake Creek,                    
 Alexander (Creek), the Talkeetna River drainage.  Also in the                 
 Susitna the very popular coho salmon fishery.  Very small sockeye             
 fishery, that's not a real popular species up in there.  Rainbow              
 Trout, Dolly Vardens support a lot of effort and, in recent years,            
 we've seen a lot of interest in Northern Pike.  And that's                    
 interesting because Northern Pike weren't native to the system.               
 They were introduced illegally in the early 1950s.  Spread real               
 gradually through the system over time and then in 1986, we had a             
 hundred year flooding event, a huge flooding event and after that             
 we found Pike everywhere.                                                     
                                                                               
 MR. DELANEY continued, "Literally 120,000 angler days supported               
 right in downtown Anchorage last year, we put 42,000 angler days on           
 Ship Creek alone.  That's all on stocked king and coho salmon.                
 Very popular local fisheries.  We try to  satisfy a lot of the                
 consumptive demands fairly close to the population bases.  We don't           
 use our hatchery products in the far flung and wild remote places.            
 We do stock king salmon in Kodiak, that's about the farthest away             
 we go."                                                                       
                                                                               
 MR. DELANEY added, "Then we have the Kenai River which we basically           
 are obligated to run like a checkbook.  A sonar unit that counts              
 fish in and we've got a daily estimate of harvest and effort                  
 subtract fish out.  The most intensively managed sport fishery in             
 the state of Alaska."                                                         
                                                                               
 CHAIRMAN AUSTERMAN asked, "Are you also on that one year to 18                
 months behind the cycle curve on your assessments?"                           
                                                                               
 MR. DELANEY said yes and, "It's one of the reasons we got in                  
 trouble on king salmon up in the Susitna.  We're going to have to             
 go back there now and do a better job of estimating harvest in                
 season."  He proceeded, "Bristol Bay area, world famous trout                 
 fisheries, excellent fisheries for salmon.  A lot of lodge                    
 businesses out there.  Overall, in the region about 60 percent of             
 the effort is from residents but it varies a lot from area to area.           
 Cook Inlet drives the total so it's 60, 65 percent resident.                  
 Bristol Bay, on the other hand, is about 80 percent nonresident.              
 A lot of guiding and a lot of outfitting, largely nonresident."  He           
 then brought forth Kodiak sport fishing issues.                               
                                                                               
 Number 597                                                                    
                                                                               
 REPRESENTATIVE SCOTT OGAN said, "Some user groups believe that more           
 fish in the river equates to more habitat degradation, what's the             
 position of (the Division of) Sport Fish on this issue?"                      
                                                                               
 MR. DELANEY replied, "We've got about 100 fisheries in Southcentral           
 in our management, and the character of each one of those is                  
 different.  And so for each one of those, I'd have a slightly                 
 different answer.  In general, if we are not sensitive to the                 
 damage we can do by trampling banks and running boats and building            
 cabins, more is worse.  In general, I think that's a very accurate            
 statement.  But where we can educate people, where we can go in               
 with our access program and harden up sites, where we can change              
 the character, rather than just to let more .  I think you can do             
 an awful lot and there still will be signs.  You can't put 100,000            
 anglers and not have some sign that they were there but whether               
 that sign that they were there equates to a lack of fish production           
 is something you need to look at on a case by case basis.  I'll               
 give you an example, on the Kenai River, there's absolutely no                
 question that when you trample the banks above the Soldotna or even           
 above intertidal, that you're going to be doing something to the              
 rearing habitat for chinook salmon."  He then spoke of intertidal             
 area in the Little Susitna River which is less vulnerable in salmon           
 rearing.                                                                      
                                                                               
 Number 645                                                                    
                                                                               
 REPRESENTATIVE OGAN pursued, "Well obviously, you mentioned that              
 there's been a lot of controversy with the decline of the king                
 salmon, especially in the Susitna Area.  I've said all along that             
 it's a multifaceted problem.  It's a common issue.  Probably too              
 much sport pressure in some areas, a lack of enforcement and people           
 from my district have, I think all districts have, a tendency to              
 look down the inlet.  The unfortunate part of that, being on the              
 very end of where the fish spawn through and then with the inlet              
 being such as it is, it's a long narrow thing.  There's going to be           
 interceptions of different fish stocks.  The people of my area,               
 especially that whole Susitna drainage, are looking for answers to            
 what we're going to be doing a year from now, five years from now.            
 What's being done with all the user groups?  Is everyone being                
 treated fairly here or do you think sport fish people are bearing             
 most of the burden?  Do you think sport fish people are most of the           
 problem?"                                                                     
                                                                               
 MR. DELANEY replied, "You've asked things that are definitely my              
 responsibility and you've asked things that are definitely not my             
 responsibility to answer.  They're my responsibility to make people           
 aware of the issues and information.  Fairness is one of those.  I            
 can't do fairness.  I can carry out the plan, but I can't make the            
 plan, I can help make the plan but we simply don't do fairness.               
 And fairness is really a big part of the whole allocation debate.             
 You're right though, it's really a multifaceted problem with king             
 salmon in Northern Cook Inlet and you hit on both.  We've got a               
 major system there. A system that historically produces about a               
 third of the total return, 25 to 30 percent of the total return,              
 the Deshka.  For some reason we've experienced a drop in production           
 there.  It's a fairly substantial drop in production.  We haven't             
 seen that same drop in production.  At least through 1993, in the             
 other streams of the system.  Talkeetna River drainage, up the                
 Yentna, those east side streams through the Susitna, they're doing            
 fine.  The last year we could get our arms around all fish, 1993,             
 we're doing fine.  But we let the fishery get too powerful there              
 for the number of fish that we have coming back, on average.  Now             
 it isn't way too powerful, basically, it was kind of like: With the           
 Statewide Harvest Survey and the kind of assessment work we've done           
 it's like flying a big heavy airplane and your altimeter light,               
 you've got like an indicator that says 'Opps, you just passed the             
 altitude you wanted to stay at'.  Well, a big heavy airplane, you             
 get through that altitude, if you know it right when you hit it,              
 you got a while to go before you're going to get her corrected and            
 get back down to the level you want.  That's kind of what we've got           
 to do.  But within that general approach, you've got a conservation           
 concern in the Deshka that frankly we're at a loss to explain right           
 now.  You've got the flood event in 1986, and you ask yourself a              
 lot of good questions.  If they're getting hit somewhere else, how            
 come Deshka fish seem to be getting hit disproportionate to others.           
 I don't know the answers to some of these questions.  Our                     
 Assessment Program, that will be beginning this year, is going to             
 be geared to sort that out, we're going to be coded wire tagging              
 the Deshka fish.  We got a weir in the Deshka so we can do a more             
 accurate rebuilding of total return there."  He added, "We know we            
 let the fishery get too big around Lake Creek and up in the                   
 Talkeetna River Drainage, but we don't know what's going on in the            
 Deshka."                                                                      
                                                                               
 CHAIRMAN AUSTERMAN asked if there is a creel count done on the                
 Deshka.                                                                       
                                                                               
 MR. DELANEY gave some history and said, "We did creel surveys in              
 79, 80, 81, 82, 83 and then as we really started to get our feet on           
 the ground, we started to back away from those intensive surveys              
 and go more with the statewide harvest survey.  Because our                   
 estimates had been very comparable and the only difference was                
 there's an 18 month lag time.  But we were seeing all the way                 
 through the 70s and early '80 was a very predictable annual rate of           
 growth.  You just about had a straight line.  It was going up 3 or            
 4,000 fish a year.  We felt really comfortable and then, in the               
 early '90s, we had some streams we felt weren't producing quite so            
 well on the west side of Cook Inlet, but they were minor.                     
 Basically, we made minor changes in the fishery.  When we got the             
 statewide Harvest Survey back, we found that we just entered a new            
 era rather than a very predictable rate of growth."                           
                                                                               
 TAPE 95-11, SIDE A                                                            
 Number 000                                                                    
                                                                               
 MR. DELANEY continued, "We didn't see huge increases in the number            
 of people from the late '80s.  It was a huge fishery in the late              
 '80s already, but what really happened, at least in my mind is, we            
 saw a real jump in efficiency."  He gave examples of efficiencies             
 and said, "Next year we're back in the water with creel surveys and           
 a weir in the Deshka.  We'll have to be more careful.  It wasn't              
 that we weren't careful we just really believed from long time                
 series of data that we could project and we were wrong."                      
                                                                               
 REPRESENTATIVE ELTON said, "I guess I would have expected that the            
 Exxon Valdez Oil Spill would have depressed nonresident fisheries."           
                                                                               
 MR. DELANEY said, "In fact we saw an increase in Prince William               
 Sound and you could speculate that it increased there while it                
 decreased in the region as a whole."                                          
 Number 068                                                                    
                                                                               
 REPRESENTATIVE OGAN asked if the flood could have effected the                
 Deshka River king salmon decline.                                             
                                                                               
 MR. DELANEY said, "The king salmon in the Susitna River Drainage              
 are primarily a five year old fish.  The 8 to 12 pounders are four.           
 The 30 pounders are six.  So we really looked for that, beginning             
 in 1990, 1991 and 1992, and, in fact we didn't see a direct effect            
 there.  There's some thought that the harm that was done more  to             
 the actual habitat then to the fish that were present at the time             
 of the flood."                                                                
                                                                               
 Number 100                                                                    
                                                                               
 CHAIRMAN AUSTERMAN asked if the Northern Pike could have an effect            
 as a predator?                                                                
                                                                               
 MS. DELANEY said, "We have an assessment program in the water right           
 now, we've radio tagged pike throughout the Susitna Drainage and              
 we're doing a food habit study on those pike.  We're finding for              
 the most part, that they're inhabiting areas that aren't heavily              
 utilized by rearing salmon and that they're eating insects, which             
 is not their preferred food.  However, they are (also) finding them           
 with salmon and whitefish and trout and other species.  In the                
 river systems it's different than in the lakes.  In the lakes they            
 will take over."                                                              
                                                                               
 CHAIRMAN AUSTERMAN asked, "Is there any kind of study that shows              
 pre-'86 on some of the rivers systems that had pike in them                   
 compared to the salmon in those river systems?"                               
                                                                               
 MR. DELANEY said, "We're tying that together.  What we've done                
 there is we've tracked as best we could.  We've got say a visual              
 that shows pike distribution of 1950s, pike distribution of the               
 '60s, pike distribution of the '70s.  Then you've got to go into 2            
 and 3 years increments because people are telling us they're here,            
 they're there and so you can watch how it expands and you can take            
 a look at salmon production over that same time."                             
                                                                               
 Number 156                                                                    
                                                                               
 REPRESENTATIVE OGAN pointed out that the Nushigak River has pike              
 and a healthy king run.                                                       
                                                                               
 MR. DELANEY agreed and said those pike are indigenous.                        
                                                                               
 ADJOURNMENT                                                                   
                                                                               
 CHAIRMAN AUSTERMAN thanked his guests and adjourned the meeting at            
 6:47 p.m.                                                                     
                                                                               

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